There are also derivative Touhou works that are sold commercially under the Play, Doujin!* label and in ebook distribution platforms** alongside your own works.

* Play, Doujin!
This is a project that helps distribute doujin games that are usually stuck on PC to console systems such as Playstation 4 and Nintendo Switch. They don’t just specialize in Touhou fanworks. They also sell original doujin media.

** Ebook distribution platforms Touhou fanworks are allowed to be sold and distributed in ZUN-approved platforms: Nico Nico Ebook and BOOKWALKER.

ZUN：

　To be honest, I don’t actually want to do this. However, going to doujin shops to buy CD-ROMs and install games on our PCs is old-fashioned now.

　These commercial ventures approached me and asked if they could release doujin software. I thought this would be a good time to get in on the action.

　I used to believe these companies would take my intellectual rights, so I always told them I wasn’t interested in commercializing. However, I’ve come to realize that as long as I held onto them, I’m all in.

hiroyuki：

　You don’t ever think about releasing works on console platforms?

ZUN：

　I don’t think about it at all.

　I’m satisfied when I make games. I don’t have much interest if a game will sell afterwards. And besides, I’m too old to adapt myself to new programming needs.

I understand that you’re not interested in commercialization, but you also feel that it would be unfortunate to not have a place to sell derivative works. Is that why you are fine with Play, Doujin and digital bookstores?

ZUN：

　I don’t want to admit this, but if Touhou became a big name on its own, I’ll gain some advantages, haha. I’m not getting paid directly, but it would be a benefit for me if people keep putting out new Touhou fanworks.

If Touhou expands and grows through derivative works, you’re also gaining something too, hm.

hiroyuki：

　After listening to what ZUN said, I feel like he doesn’t have much interest in getting his games out there or making shoot em ups popular again. He just thinks, ‘I’m going to make that.’

　Isn’t this like from a marketing playbook where we should make the customers happy?　

ZUN：

　I am not doing that, at least on the surface, haha. Back in the old doujin world, the products that saw the most success are the ones that don’t care about seeing monetary success. If the creator isn’t into the work, it just won’t sell. You could even say, making something you like is its own kind of marketing.

hiroyuki：

　Interesting that it could be its own marketing.

Touhou fangames have not only appeared in mainstream platforms but also on smartphones. What are your thoughts about this?

ZUN：

　I want to see more Touhou fangames on smartphones, please.

hiroyuki：

　Woah, how come?

ZUN：

　I want to do this because, similar to what we’re doing on consoles and Steam, no one else is doing this on smartphones. But I don’t know what will come of it.

hiroyuki：

　What about your rights?

ZUN：

　While the rights aren’t granted to you, you can publish those games on those platforms if you wish. If the original creator says it’s fine, I don’t see why Apple or Google would complain.

Since you are giving the okay for doujin media on smartphones, have you thought about entering that market as well?　

ZUN：

　I’ve thought about it, but I don’t know if it’s worth the effort. If I do make something for smartphones, I’ll have to learn from scratch again, and that’s annoying.

　That said, I’ve been thinking about making games for older hardware for the sake of it. I dare someone to make a game for the Famicom.

hiroyuki：

　Kids these days don’t even have their own PCs, so if they don’t play shoot em’ ups on smartphones, no one is going to play them in the future.

ZUN：

　That’s right

When new fans ask me what’s the first Touhou game they should play first, I wish I could answer with Scarlet Devil, Perfect Cherry Blossom, and Imperishable Night. But there’s no way to play them right now.

ZUN：

　That’s the unfortunate truth. Maybe we’ll be able to emulate Windows on smartphones in the near future.

hiroyuki：

　That’s a bit ridiculous, haha.

When you became a parent, did you feel differently about making creative work?

ZUN：

　I think my userbase was the first to notice the change. I’ve always been thinking about myself, so I never notice the tides of change. The time to make games has gotten longer and longer; I used to make games at night, but now I have to get up at six in the morning. That’s a big change.

Do you ever think about how long you’ll be making games yourself, then?

ZUN：

　Like I said, I’ve decided to make games when I feel like it instead of thinking about how many years I’m going to make games. But that means I can’t say I’m going to stop. I can’t say that this will be the last one.

Do you see yourself continuing to work on these games on your own?

ZUN：

　Well, that’s how it is… If I keep making shoot em’ ups until I become an 80 year old geezer, I wonder what will happen, haha. It’s an interesting thing to think about.

hiroyuki：

　Why don’t you just find some bright young engineer and let them do the work? Like how the masters train their apprentices to succeed them?

ZUN：

　The issue is rights, haha. When I pass away, I don’t want the rights to continue. I don’t want to be another Disney.

hiroyuki：

　If you die, I don’t think Touhou will suddenly go out of fashion, and it will just continue as it is.

ZUN：

　It’s possible that it could die out, so if I want to see it off as a timeless series, I have to be someone like Lovecraft.

In another way, you don’t see Touhou coming close to what the Cthulhu Mythos has become at the moment.

hiroyuki：

　Wouldn’t it be okay if people just keep on making Touhou fanworks?

ZUN：

　I don’t think so. No one makes derivative works out of other derivative works. Fanworks may create new characters in new stories, but their reach will never be as great.

hiroyuki：

　That’s a tough one.

ZUN：

　And we got the Touhou cops anyway, haha.

hiroyuki：

　Yep yep.

When you think about what you want Touhou to be like in the future as an author and its Divine Master of Ceremonies, what do you think?

ZUN：

　In the near future, it may become less common for people to make games for computers. Even if that happens, I hope to continue making retro vertical shoot ‘em ups. I know it may not be commercially viable, but the best scenario is that I can keep making these games.

　I also want to see Touhou characters appear in different games and see them become famous on their own. That’s why I want to see them in Smash Bros., haha. But as much as I like to think about it, it may never happen.

Do you have any interest in making anything unrelated to Touhou in the future?

ZUN：

　Hmm, I’ve thought about it in the past. But now that Touhou has gotten this big, if I tried to make something different and people found out, that work is gonna be seen as adjacent to Touhou.

　I could create a new world, but people will find connections. As long as the creator is the same, there is no need to make something that is totally different. As long as the creator puts something out they like, there will be connections.

hiroyuki：

　You can’t escape from Touhou then?

ZUN：

　I can’t, and that’s the truth. Whatever I make will always be Touhou, and if I somehow make something that isn’t Touhou, I feel like I’ll lose myself. That’s why I’ve accepted that I’m okay with Touhou.

Well, let’s finish up.

hiroyuki：

　Oh, it’s over?

Well, that’s because you were two hours late, haha.

ZUN：

　Had to pick up my kid from the daycare center.

We would like to finally ask you to send a message to the Touhou fans.

ZUN：

　I will continue to make games at my own pace. I may or may not make games, and everything I’ve said here may change, but I still hope you’ll like letting me live like this.

　As for the future of Touhou, I have no idea. Recently, I’ve enjoyed the idiomatic expression of releasing a tiger into the wild, and I’m looking forward to Touhou being free in that way.

(End)

 

Interviewer: Saitou Daichi

Writer: Seinosuke Itou

Photographer: Fukuoka Ryouji (GEKKO)

Translator: Kastel

Editor: Nimrod