ーFirst, let’s begin by letting the audience know who you are with a brief introduction.

Potemki: I’m just a Russian guy who started making games in 2019 and drawing in 2020.

Graber: I’m Adrian Graber, producer and multiplatform developer at refint/games, the publisher for the game on consoles.

ーHow were you introduced to Touhou?

Potemki: Back in 2015 or 2014 on 4chan, there were touhou threads on /v/, and then I learned /jp/ is pretty much a touhou board, and I spent a lot of time there. Although I wasn’t really into the series until 2020, that’s when I started being passionate.

Graber: In my case, I always saw very elaborate Touhou art around, but it wasn’t until an old friend of mine actually had me try the games after talking about the series, I think the first one they recommended me was Perfect Cherry Blossom or Embodiment of Scarlet Devil about 4 years ago, probably the former, and then I really got into it haha.

ーWhat particular aspect of Touhou made you like the series?

Potemki: Definitely the world and setting. This is probably sacrilege, but I don’t like the mainline games much.

ーWhat part of the setting do you especially like?

Potemki: Gensokyo is just a really unique place. I like the fusion of old and new, as long as it’s forgotten in the outside world, it can appear there. All the esoteric mythological references ZUN somehow digs up with every game is very interesting, too.

Graber: For me, after getting into the mainline games, and then going back to see the community aspect, it’s very easy to notice that fans are very passionate both in the west and back in Japan. I love seeing everyone gather around in the name of the series. Gathering around a series you like a lot and seeing a lot of people in return is very wholesome.

This is especially the case since, today (the day this question was asked), I’m actually going to go to a Touhou themed meet up at Anime Expo, haha.

ーWhat part of the community do you especially like?

Graber: It definitely has to be the collaborative aspect, of how groups of fans will sometimes join to create elaborate fan works, meet ups, and even conventions.

ーWho are your favourite characters? What makes them your favourite?

Potemki: Reisen, definitely. She was the first character at the time to get real character development, even if ZUN forgot about her recently. Her relation to the Moon is cool, too. I wonder how she lived her old life. But I also like Tenshi, Nue, Koishi and Remilia, solely because they’re fun to draw.

Graber: It’s probably Cirno, I love her design and her tendency for pranks reminds me a bit of myself when I play annoying pranks to some of my friends (if one of them is reading this, apologies in advance, haha). I also like Nitori because of the engineering aspect which kinda clicks with me sometimes, and I like Lily White’s design a lot too.

ーWhat got you into game development / game publishing?

Potemki: Ah, touchy subject. I’m actually disabled in real life. Back in 2019, I had an unsuccessful surgery, and I thought I’d never be able to walk again (it worked out, though), so I started working on something to pass the time and make something of value. I basically opened a GameMaker tutorial and copied it, adding my own ideas in the mix. That first game is still sitting somewhere on my PC, never to see the light of day. I’m glad Artificial Dream in Arcadia got popular, I fulfilled the goal I set out for myself. 

Graber: I was always surrounded by video games in my upbringing, and that kind of led me into software development, because games are software and I was interested in contributing towards that in some way. In the middle of studying for that, I developed a bit of a background in game modding for a few games, and later on beta testing on official titles from other companies.. I was always a bit lacking on the creative side myself, but I figured that if I can handle programming and release-management related tasks well enough, I can support efforts in that space, which in the end worked out because that’s exactly what I’m doing now at refint/games.

ーAlright. Now that  we’ve given the readers a chance to familiarize themselves with you, I’ll be asking a few questions regarding the development of ADiA.

ーADiA is heavily inspired by SMT, what prompted you to develop an SMT-inspired Touhou game?

Potemki: Well, I like Touhou, and I like SMT. I honestly don’t remember exactly why I decided this. I think I just wanted to recreate the old SMT rendering style in GameMaker, and it snowballed from there. I even have a video of that first prototype still.

ーWhat was the biggest hurdle in developing ADiA, whether it was coding, art, level design, etc?

Potemki: Story, by far. That was the longest amount of time I spent on any one part of the game. Fun fact, Sumireko was supposed to be doing all sorts of teenager nonsense in the game originally, not just taking selfies, but I couldn’t come up with enough ideas, so it ended up being just selfies, which then snowballed into this idea of making memories for the last time.

ーDid you have other concepts that you originally wanted to include in the game, but had to cut?

Potemki: Oh yeah. There were no ‘sleepers’ at first, all the characters were recruited by talking to them, but that was an impossible task to make dialogue for 150+ established characters.

ーIndeed. ZUN himself struggled to write the fortune slips for Whispered Oracle of Hakurei Shrine.

Potemki: Now imagine that but with branching dialogue trees, haha.

ーWere the PC-98 characters always intended to be part of the game?

Potemki: Yes, although the post-game dungeons weren’t. I added them in 2 weeks, literally a month before the game was released.

ーThat happens sometimes. ZUN has mentioned that the spin-off games tend to be developed in roughly only a month or so.

Potemki: They reuse a lot of assets from the main game and remix them, so I can believe that. Asset creation usually takes the longest in gamedev, from my experience, at least.

ーWhich is why they tend to be reused, if possible.

ーWhich dungeon was the most fun to make? Conversely, which was the most difficult to make?

Potemki: All of the dungeons were drawn on paper first, and then added into the game.

Potemki: Pictured is Shining Needle Castle, the hardest dungeon to design. But the most fun was Pandemonium, because I could unleash my evil sadistic ideas with no regard for the player because it’s the final dungeon.

ーI take it you’re the sadistic type of game developer, then?

Potemki: No, I like fair games. The main game of ADiA is quite tame, I only went all out for the post-game. Sometimes during solo development, the game becomes exponentially harder because the dev keeps playing their own game over and over, that’s called ‘developer difficulty’, and my first game, Udongein X, suffers from it quite badly. But I never intended for the game to be sadistic.

ーWhat part of the game are you most proud of?

Potemki: The one part I didn’t make: music. But if we’re talking about what I made, then the dungeon design in the Lunar Sea. I really like the effect I made there, with the transparent water walls. The game actually renders everything twice to achieve that effect.

ーHow long did it take to get it to look how you wanted it to look?

Potemki: 2 days, maybe? I really had to dig deep into the documentation to learn more about draw masking and whatnot.

ーIt was quite the task then, eh?

Potemki: Sure was, especially when I learn everything as I do it.

ーUp next, let’s enquire about the port. How did this port come about? Did Potemki reach out to refint/games? Or did refint/games reach out to Potemki?

Potemki: I was actually in contact with multiple publishers before I contacted refint/games. But they all fell through because they couldn’t send me a dev kit.

Graber: Yeah, actually, it was me that reached out initially with the idea.

Potemki: Graber actually contacted me through Twitter DMs, and I initially denied the offer, but then decided to accept after the other publishers dropped me. Basically, they could both make the port AND publish it.

Graber: Due to various reasons, it wasn’t possible for us to send a devkit, but we had the expertise to do it in house rather than relying on the original developer, which is something we like to do anyways since it removes a burden from the original developer and allows us to work better within the company. 

Graber: I can’t take too much credit for the port though, because Potemki11 actually helped out with some of the assets (the new button icons for each console), and the engine, GameMaker, was already ported to Nintendo Switch and PlayStation (GameMaker provides you with this version after proving to them that you already have access to each console platform). But some rather minor additional programming was involved from our end due to the idiosyncrasies of how each console works, so it became our task in the end.

ーAh, so Potemki was already shopping around for a publisher for ADiA and refint/games coincidentally also wanted to port the game?

Potemki: Pretty much.

ーIs creating the port something other publishers also do?

Graber: This is drawing from my own experiences on seeing how other companies act, it really depends on each publisher and each project. Sometimes, the publisher might feel compelled to do the port themselves (or commission a third party to do so) for various reasons, such as achieving better schedules (because the original developer might be busy, so if they did the port, it would come later), or the original developer might not have access to the platform already, might not be familiar with the platform, and etc., this happens most of the time when the publisher believes that the title will be successful, so they want to achieve a ported version regardless of the circumstances.

Graber: Similarly, some publishers might let the original developer do the port because it might be a more collaborative effort to publish a ported version, or because of reasons such as saving time and cost from their end (in other words, if the original developer does it, the publisher spends less resources, which means it’s less riskier and therefore more compelling for them to go on with the project). 

ーWhat was the process of getting into contact with Team Shanghai Alice to ask about publishing like? Did you already have a pre-established relationship with them, or did you simply ask?

Graber: I’ll avoid being too specific out of consideration to the parties involved, but I will point out that, in the current fan guidelines, it’s mentioned that if you want to be involved in fan content as a legal person (eg. a company, which refint/games is), you have to contact them if you wish to proceed. However, this would merely involve the permission to publish fan works as a legal person, which doesn’t include crucial requirements to publish on the console platforms themselves, such as access to the development environment/equipment and publishing contracts for each platform (such as Nintendo and Sony), and you would be on your own to procure that. Both Nintendo and Sony have a strict application and review process where they manually check who gets access to those kinds of resources.

Graber: This is why publishers are usually involved with producing the console versions, because they’re already familiar with the process of getting a game on consoles, and already have access to development resources and are familiarized with the publishing process on the console’s end, which can be very complicated when compared to platforms like Steam, as there are many additional guidelines to comply with.

ーAh, so refint/games got permission from Team Shanghai Alice, and that’s the extent of what you’re allowed to say?

Graber: refint/games got permission from Team Shanghai Alice, yes. The permission is very similar to the current fan guidelines, except for a few differences (related to company-related bits).

ーAnd you’re unable to divulge more than that, yes?

Graber: Each title is different, so I would leave it at that.

ーUnderstood.

ーContent wise, was there anything about the game that was remarked upon or considered for change in the process of getting the port approved? Either due to licensing/copyright issues or otherwise?

Graber: Generally speaking, each title is treated on a case by case basis, and each copyright holder can have their own set of conditions, such as reviewing the finished product to make sure their copyright is used in an acceptable way. However, as long as you don’t include problematic content such as materials unrelated to the licensed property or where the copyright belongs to third parties, it should be a pretty smooth process. Of course, when every copyright holder is involved in a project, there aren’t any issues related to this.

ーWhat are your favourite SMT demons?

Potemki: Chernobog, probably. There are a lot of cool ones.

Graber: I like Matador’s design, but maybe I’m a bit biased because I’m a native speaker of the language where that whole activity comes from.

Potemki: Same here with Chernobog.

Graber: True, haha.

ーFavourite Touhou fanwork?

Potemki: Puppet Dance Performance.

ーOh, another Touhou game inspired by an old-school franchise, eh? Apologies to any Pokemon or SMT fans who felt old after reading that statement.

Potemki: Yeah, I even made my intentions clear.

https://x.com/potemki11/status/1480626107028279299 

Graber: I love the arrangements from COOL&CREATE (beatMARIO), especially “Help me, ERINNNNNN!!”.

ーThey make quite fun songs.

ーWhat advice would you give for aspiring game developers?

Potemki: Sit down, grab an energy drink, turn the volume all the way up and play some MAN WITH A MISSION, and do not quit until the sun goes up. That worked for me. I did that for 5 years and counting. And Touhou devs, PLEASE use more characters than just from Touhou 6. There are so many cool designs and abilities in the series, please do something with them! Actually, I’m not sure if this is advice or just self harm, haha.

ーIt probably depends on the personality of the developer.

Potemki: You won’t get anywhere on 1 hour of dev time a day.

ーSome people work better in bursts, some people work better in long sessions.

Potemki: I’m definitely the latter, then. The hardest part is to start working, but then it’s smooth sailing. 

Potemki: Actually, I do have one piece of advice. Don’t be afraid to start. Gamedev is really not as impossible as it might appear from the outside, especially for solo projects. Not having to rely on others just makes it easier, although slower for obvious reasons. Even if you don’t succeed, you can still say that you at least tried, which is more than can be said about a lot of people with unrealized ideas.

ーWhat advice would you have for developers who aspire to have their games ported to console?

Graber: This is also a little bit in general, but would apply to fan games.

Graber: For starters, getting into console development in general for starters is a bit difficult due to the whole manual approval process. After all, the platforms want to know that they are giving the tools for consoles to teams that are already prepared to deal with them, or at least have the expertise/resources to know how to outsource it to the appropriate teams. Sometimes, they’re willing to take risks based on their own expectations of how they expect a certain project would perform, but it is really up to them, and the policies of acceptance can vary between them.

Graber: A lot of people get denied while trying to apply, and it might be easy to take it personally, but I would say it’s not and it’s just part of their process, since they’re big companies that have to keep their risks at a minimum. On the subject of derivative works, it becomes a bit of an egg/chicken problem: You might want to propose a title to a platform, but the platform might be wary of you because you may not have permission from the copyright holder to do so yet. And you might want to propose a title to the copyright holder, but they might be wary because you might not have access to the target platform, and there’s no guarantee that you’ll be granted access to it.

Graber: If you’re a small team that focuses only on game creation, it might be challenging to prove yourself in this way, which is why most of the time developers start with publishing teams to tackle porting projects. Such publishers are already familiarized with the technical aspects of each platform, and therefore are already trusted by the platforms and thus don’t have much challenges to release titles.

Graber: So, my ultimate advice to developers would be first and foremost make the best game that they can, regardless of the target platform. Ultimately the quality of it is what will draw the attention of either the platform (which would allow access), or a publisher (which would be willing to collaborate with you to get the title to consoles), regardless of whether you pitch it or you get asked about it by the publisher. 

ーThank you very much for your answers. Do the both of you have any closing statements for the readers?

Potemki: I’ll just say ‘Create!’ If a nobody like me can make it, so can you.

Graber: I’ll second that, because without creators we wouldn’t be here either, haha.

Potemki: As always, I’ll be posting Udongein X2 updates and art on my Twitter. Also, we have another new game in the works, so look forward to that.

Graber: Yeah, I will also add, our social media is @refintg on X and @refint.games on BlueSky. We’ll be posting updates related to Touhou ADiA such as patch and sale notices, and you’ll be able to find updates about our other upcoming works there as well.

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This concludes our interview.

Touhou ADiA is available on Steam, Nintendo Switch, PS4, and PS5, you can find them at the links below :

Steam 

Consoles